Robert Spencer, author of several books on Islam and owner of jihadwatch.org, is seen by quite a few as an important figure fighting radical Islam. The following facts should, however, be known about him before anyone unfamiliar with him lends him his support or view him as a defender of freedom.
He joined a Facebook group that
. Advocate the total Reconquest and complete reassymilation of the Anatolia penninsular, eastern Thrace, northern Cyprus, Greater Armenia, The Pontus and Antiochia through the medium of Greek, Armenian, Cypriot, Byzantine, Pontic and Syriac National Sovereignty and on an unconditional basis.
. The complete unilateral and unnegotiable permanent ethnic transformation of theses territories in order to coopt the first aim.
And the establishment of a National coalitionary Greater European confederative super state in order to secure the first two aims, with guaranteed sovereign borders, fixed permanent garrisons and the necessary military means to ensure alien repatriation with a view to permanent long term resettlement.
* This group entirely understands and accepts that this project will require the displacement of up to 150 million persons, …
Spencer claims that he joined the group unawares but then proceeds to accuse the tipper together with his long-standing internet nemesis Charles Johnson of lgf of setting him up, and of being hoaxers:
But in this case I have fallen victim to an Internet prank. Johnson’s response to my joining this group was so swift that I suspect that the group itself, and its invitation that I join it, was a hoax and a setup, but in any case I freely acknowledge my mistake: I was working through a number of such requests hurriedly, and joined the group without looking further at what it was all about. I didn’t read any of the material the group had posted, which Johnson says advocates genocide and ethnic cleansing and even links to the Aryan Nations. [Note Spencer's evasion of the actual content of the group's mission statement, which by that time, given his temporary connection with it, he should have studied more carefully by that time.]
He updates the post saying he will have the tipper removed from Facebook. He has of this now not shown any signs of revulsion at the group’s content, nor has he asked Facebook to have the group’s content or the group itself removed. In other words, his anger is directed at the person most people in this kind of situation would have regarded with gratitude, while the source of his embarrasment, the noxious group, deserves no condemnation at all. He further insists at the hotair site in the comments section that the whole incident was and is a setup, without any proof to back up his claim.
UPDATE: I’ve been informed that this use of Facebook material for defamation and libel by Facebook user “Cato the Elder” is in violation of Facebook rules. I’ve accordingly written to Facebook asking that his account there be revoked.
He threatens to sue Charles Johnson for libel
SECOND UPDATE: I’d also like to remind Charles Johnson publicly that accusing someone of supporting genocide who doesn’t support genocide is actionable libel. I don’t have the time to waste suing this noxious individual, but anyone who continues to take him seriously as a public figure with something to contribute to public discussion should be advised that his attachment to the truth is tenuous at best.
If you re-examine Johnson’s post you’ll see that Johnson never did anything of the sort. Which is why you’ll never see any suit coming from Spencer over this issue this side of Kingdom Come.
Spencer’s friend James George Jatras was a witness for the defence in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, where Jatras spouted conspiracy theories to the effect that the Clinton administration colluded with the Iranian regime to smuggle arms into Bosnia and Kosovo during the war to further the spread of radical Islam.
By including James Jatras, former American Republican Party analyst and adviser, in his witness list, Slobodan Milosevic wanted to prove his argument on the collusion between Bill Clinton’s Democrat administration and radical Islamic elements, first in Bosnia and then in Kosovo.
(Jatras also seems to be on Putin’s payroll.)
The reason for the enmity between Johnson and Spencer goes back to the Vlaams Belang controversy and Spencer’s unwillingness to dissociate himself from sites like Gates of Vienna, The Brussels Journal and writers like Fjordman. (Spencer’s last exchanges at lgf can be read here; Fjordman is still referred to as “the great European essayist Fjordman”.)
Spencer has written countless times something along the lines of this:
As far as fascism goes, I oppose all authoritarian governments, and believe in the freedom of speech and other freedoms that historically have never thrived in fascist settings. The jihadists want to impose a totalitarian order that crushes all dissent and enforces social conformity at the point of a sword — that is fascist. A genuine alternative is the Western idea of a free and pluralistic society in which people who differ on core issues in good conscience respect one another enough to refrain from trying to gain dominance over the others or asserting any supremacist agenda. But that is in its essence non-fascist and, indeed, anti-fascist.
And yet he lends explicit, unqualified support to sites such as Gates of Vienna, The Brussels Journal by still linking to them from jihadwatch, sites that openly try to push the boundaries of what is conceivable in order to solve the “Islamic Question in Europe”. Spencer claims that he is “sifting the evidence” with regards to Vlaams Belang. If he does, the sieve he uses needs smaller holes. While at the same time he writes:
You may have not seen this short email exchange between Mr. Spencer and myself a number of months ago. The Lizards here can back me up that these are for real…
“Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?” (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)
And his answer…
“Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied.” [My bold. A contradictory statement in view of his earlier "I oppose all authoritarian governments".] (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)
So, a picture emerges of a man who plays on many levels, making strong efforts to keep them separated, at least for the various audiences he is trying to reach.
Here is Spencer’s view on race:
And I think that a race-based approach is wrong in a number of ways. To repeat:
1. It’s the wrong way to fight the global jihad. The jihad is not a race, Islam is not a race, Muslims are not all of one race. Those who are threatened by the jihadists are not all of one race. The issues between the Islamic world and non-Muslims are not racial. They are about religious supremacism. Bringing in race just confuses the issue, and allows jihadists and their de facto allies among the Eurabian elites to claim that this whole thing is about racism.
2. To form one group for indigenous Europeans, as has been done in several countries, reduces virtually every issue to the one non-negotiable issue of race and ethnicity, discourages cooperation, and thus encourages Balkanization, works against the idea of representative government, and obscures the common values of Judeo-Christian civilization that are shared by people of many races and ethnicities.
3. This approach hamstrings and marginalizes the anti-jihad movement. Many people who oppose the Islamization of Europe will never join with a race-based party to do so. As I said above, Hugh Fitzgerald and I have often commented here over the years about the tragedy in Europe: the mainstream political parties have completely abdicated any responsibility to deal with the Islamization of Europe, thus leaving the field open to groups that obscure the issue with racial politics.
4. Many, many people have written here, and will no doubt write again in response to this post, that the parties that speak of race are the only ones in Europe that are doing anything to resist Islamization, and thus they deserve the support of all those who believe there is something worth defending in Western non-Muslim civilization. I don’t think that is any sounder an argument than the claim that we must support Hizballah because it builds schools and runs charities when not lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians.
Spencer forgets to state the obvious: That the view that man is born with certain innate qualities based on a predominance of some specific set of chemicals in the parents is false and that it has led to immeasurable suffering through the millenia of man’s history. That should in fact be enough to reject that kind of view of man entirely. Spencer’s approach is rather tactical:
This approach hamstrings and marginalizes the anti-jihad movement. Many people who oppose the Islamization of Europe will never join with a race-based party
It’s the wrong way to fight the global jihad. The jihad is not a race, Islam is not a race, Muslims are not all of one race.
To form one group for indigenous Europeans, as has been done in several countries, reduces virtually every issue to the one non-negotiable issue of race and ethnicity, discourages cooperation, and thus encourages Balkanization, works against the idea of representative government, and obscures the common values of Judeo-Christian civilization that are shared by people of many races and ethnicities
In fact, he ends this reasoning with the following:
But while culture has a racial component, culture and race are not identical.
If Spencer would care to explain how “culture”, which, let us say, is the intellectual achievements of a society within a certain geographic area, has a “racial”, that is, innate component, he is invited to do so. Until then, we will have to draw our own conclusions.
In summary, Spencer finds himself in the embarrasing situation of having joined a Facebook group with a revolting cause. Rather than quickly withdraw and condemn the group, he pours vitriol and strange conspiratorical “insights” on his helpers, he tries to bully Charles Johnson of lgf with the threat of a libel suit but fails for the obvious reason that Johnson’s post merely contains facts, he holds the contradictory positions of condemning racism and fascism, supporting racists and linking to racist/fascist leaning sites, while at the same time professing indifference to ideology altogether, and while seemingly seeing racism as an “impractical” approach to resisting jihad, and holding a view of man, that on the face of it, is at least partially racist. On considering the evidence, the inevitable conclusion is that Spencer is not a reliable ally in the defence of freedom, to put it conservatively.
I was asked in the comments section at jihadwatch if I thought Spencer was a crypto-fascist and in the heat of the moment I replied ‘yes’. On second thought I find that the point is moot: Spencer is, with all his contradictions, his bullying manners, his actions (regardless of the motives behind them) enabling racists and fascists who try to exploit resistance to Islamic jihad for their own purposes.
Added 4.07 pm, Feb 15: There is a common methodology shared by Spencer, his friend Jatras and the notorious Fjordman: their propensity to resort to conspiracy theories to “explain” events around them. Fjordman swallowed the idea of Eurabia, the idea that a small clandestine but extremely powerful department within the EU is working for the Islamification of the European Union, hook, line and sinker. This is certainly not reassuring and only adds to the “bad” side of the scales for their part.
Added 3.22 pm, Feb 27: Kejda Gjermani exposes the ties between Spencer and Trifkovic.
Added 9.02 pm, Nov 5: Littlegreenfootballs has of late veered sharply to the left. In its present state that blog has increasingly less of value to communicate. I will stay convinced, however, that my conclusions regarding Spencer, Vlaams Belang, etc., were correct, until shown otherwise.
Divided we fall.
Comment by Mary — February 15, 2009 @ 7:06 am
Possibly. He shouldn’t have strayed.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 8:24 am
My meter’s gone through the roof while away. Tipping my hat to lgf.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 8:25 am
That the view that man is born with certain innate qualities based on a predominance of some specific set of chemicals in the parents is false
What, DNA isn’t real?
and that it has led to immeasurable suffering through the millenia of man’s history.
Possibly true, but irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the first statement.
Comment by aNZu — February 15, 2009 @ 11:29 am
Guftafs,
You cite Robert Spencer as saying
“I’d also like to remind Charles Johnson publicly that accusing someone of supporting genocide who doesn’t support genocide is actionable libel”.
, then proceed to say yourself that
“If you re-examine Johnson’s post you’ll see that Johnson never did anything of the sort”.
I need to ask you whether you actually bothered to read Charles Johnsons post. The very title is “Robert Spencer Joins Genocidal Facebook Group”.
Comment by Henrik — February 15, 2009 @ 1:50 pm
The sentence was a little unclear, yes. DNA doesn’t carry any ideational content, and therefore plays no part in the shaping of culture, nor when judging a man’s character.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024805.php
Comment by George Miller — February 15, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
This feud between Johnson and Spencer sickens me. They are both forces for good. Charles is an ex-leftie who has come to his senses, and now heads one of the most influential pro-freedom, pro-Western sites. But he still exhibits knee-jerk reactions to anything positioned to his right.
Spencer I have met, and Johnson is simply wrong about him. Spencer is an unqualified good guy, just like Johnson is.
Someone else already posted “Divided we fall.” Johnson should realize there are bigger fish to fry than our own friends and allies. A case in point: Wilders is an all-around good guy too. He’s wrong about wanting to ban the koran, but to Johnson, that means immediate dismissal as an ally.
Charles should get off his high horse. We need him among the foot soldiers.
Comment by d belinfante — February 15, 2009 @ 2:37 pm
Wilders seems to be ready to form an alliance with Vlaams Belang.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
Is it really necessary for Charles and the Lizard cult to root out every sinister agent on the right when the mainstream left is free to link arms with every last anarchist, Maoist nutbag and communist front in the light of day? Its not like we have the luxury in the West of an overabundance of people who take the threat of Islamofascism seriously.
Comment by Hector — February 15, 2009 @ 4:08 pm
Culture has a racial component? Should we expect Anglina Jolie’s adopted children to revert to cannibalism or ancestor worship? Will we read any day now perhaps, that they ate their nanny?
The urge to “fight fire with fire” is always there and very tantalizing especially when those entrusted to protect society let it down so badly. I’m in God help us mode. There is only one race. Human.
Comment by Canuck — February 15, 2009 @ 4:13 pm
Regarding:
“In fact, he ends this reasoning with the following:
But while culture has a racial component, culture and race are not identical.
If Spencer would care to explain how “culture”, which, let us say, is the intellectual achievements of a society within a certain geographic area, has a “racial”, that is, innate component, he is invited to do so. Until then, we will have to draw our own conclusions.”
I think the above reaction is a bit histrionic, looking to make mountains out of what are possibly only molehills.
Culture, geography and race are in fact linked merely *historically*. Of course the nature vs nurture debate when it comes to discussing human beings (going farther back) is an incredibly complex subject, which may be impossible to ever objectively untangle, but the arguments surrounding those stubbornly persistent statistical differences in IQ distributions (which of course overlap, and do have somewhat converging means) demonstrate that blanket assertions that race is only melanin deep –rather than a complex record of evolutionary history — are also perhaps scientifically simplistic.
So I’m not ready to crucify Spencer yet, at least on that one remark.
Comment by newscaper — February 15, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
Your condemnation of Spencer is pretty weak. The man admits to a mistake and corrects it…and you attack him for not being repentant enough, for not posting a detailed analysis on his mistake, and for his angry response regarding the timing and viciousness of LGF’s post. I’ll admit that admitting to a mistake and correcting it is not the same as an actual apology, but it should be good enough.
You post his explanation of why he is not a racist, and you attack him for not including your own favourite reason for not being racist. Ain’t it enough that he gives his reasons?
As an admirer of Johnson, I do admit that he occasionally attacks those allies of his that he doesn’t see as ideologically pure enough.
Comment by Johnny 100 Pesos — February 15, 2009 @ 5:49 pm
You stated here:
with his long-standing internet nemesis Charles Johnson of lgf of setting him up
Well, that’s certainly not a true statement. For years, Spencer and Johnson were joined at the hip – one might even explain it as Johnson having a “man crush” on Robert Spencer. So, although Johnson recently threw Spencer under the Little Green Bus, there was mutual respect and even adoration there for many years.
Comment by TruthOne — February 15, 2009 @ 5:52 pm
Bottom line, for me – I wouldn’t be comfortable sending a friend a link to Robert Spencer’s site. It has become an American gateway to some of the darker currents of European politics.
Comment by rol — February 15, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
I’m pleased we seem to be in agreement on all the other points.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 5:59 pm
There is a great value to a Constantinople liberation movement.
It highlights the inexcusable stupidity of the Islamic equivalents, whether it’s “Andalus” or “Palestine.”
If we in the West are all rational moderates, while the other side have a load of fanatics, then there can be no compromise, only surrender.
IF HOWEVER, we have fanatics behind us as well, then we can demand tit-for-tat in curbing their fanatics, as a price for curbing ours.
In serious game theory, the irrational has a crucial role.
Comment by Robert Arvanitis — February 15, 2009 @ 6:39 pm
I suppose that depends on what you want to achieve. If you’re saying that there’s a place for the irrational in human relationships, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Please go away.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 6:48 pm
what a total and utter bullshit! i’ve joined quite a few facebook groups myself, only to look around and leave. doesn’t mean a damn thing, except that LGF’s owner is a histrionic-prone drama queen.
Comment by poul — February 15, 2009 @ 8:00 pm
A Facebook group? Was there a Blood Oath involved?
Wow, thanks Senator McCarthy.
Comment by ThomasD — February 15, 2009 @ 9:42 pm
I freely admit I cannot see the point in such fratricidal back & forth “gotchas”. If they were both running for high office then it would be worth delving into the details, but at this point they are bloggers I admire and who bring value to the table in the war against radical Islam. It’s a bit premature to be picking our embattled ranks apart with mano a mano struggles over who joined what Facebook group. Good grief, this whole topic looks like a pissing match out of the left wing fever swamps. It reminds me of the far left pummeling each other with Mao’s Little Red Book.
Sorry but both Johnson & Spencer have more to offer us than this kind of ‘he hit me with his purse’ drivel.
Comment by DaMav — February 15, 2009 @ 11:31 pm
It does seem to me that the Free Constantinople group is a bit tongue in check mock of the Islamic reclamation of Andalus and Palestine. Do we know that this is a serious effort?
Comment by Ayatrollah — February 15, 2009 @ 11:40 pm
1. If it were a joke, why did Spencer react so violently and bizarrely?
2. If you take the trouble to look at the Facebook page, you’ll see that it isn’t a joke.
(That’s only half the story, though. Read the post to the end.)
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 11:50 pm
You don’t find it strange that LGF gets a tip that Spencer joined the Facebook group a mere two hours after he joined it?
1) Why was Cato browsing that one particulur group out of the tens of thousands on Facebook?
2) At the exact same time Spencer was invited and accepted?
3) Spencer just happens to be the same guy Cato’s idol hates?
It’s a major stretch to think it’s all a coincidence. He was set-up (most definately by Cato himself to gain favor with Charles)
Comment by XXXX — February 16, 2009 @ 12:57 am
“If it were a joke, why did Spencer react so violently and bizarrely?”
How would you have reacted?
One last thing: Have you seen LGF’s plumetting Alexa rankings (42,329)? Lower than Jihad Watch (29,093) and Atlas (30,673).
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/littlegreenfootballs.com
Sinking faster than a stone.
Comment by XXXX — February 16, 2009 @ 1:08 am
Relevance?
Of course assuming this is what happened. Go over to lgf to check that out.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 1:21 am
The sentence was a little unclear, yes. DNA doesn’t carry any ideational content, and therefore plays no part in the shaping of culture, nor when judging a man’s character.
Comment by guftafs — February 15, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
Actually, there is some evidence that political views are in part genetically determined, so DNA does in fact carry ‘ideational content’:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080206091437.htm
True or not, that doesn’t justify racist policies, of course.
Comment by aNZu — February 16, 2009 @ 2:39 am
The whole FaceBook thing is a farce.
I have clicked accept to lots of people and then later go look to see who or what group it actually is.
It all depends on if Spencer was invited. If he was, all he had to do was click accept. If that is the case, it is a clear setup.
Now if he went looking for some group to join, then that is a different story.
Comment by Rachel — February 16, 2009 @ 2:54 am
It’s my understanding that LGF BAITED Spencer into joining this group, and he did it hastily (by his own admission on http://www.JihadWatch.org) so geesh can we give the guy a break?
Comment by paulrevere2 — February 16, 2009 @ 2:59 am
The article did not state anything with certainty (and there never will be such an article). Would this mean that if you check DNA from Russians born 50 years ago that there’d be imprinted some communist knowledge and sympathies in their genes (or any other period and any other party)? It’s an either-or proposition: Either man has free will or he is determined, for example by innate ideas. If you’re interested I’d recommend you to read Leonard Peikoff’s ‘Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand’
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 3:03 am
… and you are mistaken. If you’re interested go to the relevant lgf post and check it out.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 3:15 am
Regarding Alexa rankings — you are best served ignoring them as an accurate measure. If I wanted to, I could get LGF a top 20K ranking within a week for about $10. If you believe Alexa, then you have to believe that 11% of JihadWatch’s traffic originates from India (and has there ever been a single comment on that site from an Indian?).
You are better off looking at sites like Compete.com, which provide stats that are much harder to manipulate.
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/littlegreenfootballs.com+jihadwatch.org/?metric=uv
In reality, Charles has never had more visitors than he enjoys today. He’s engaging the concept of liberty to a whole new segment of the population intrinsically open to such ideas, but repelled by the garden variety religious supremacists (i.e. the Robert Spencers and Pat Buchanan’s of the Republican party).
Comment by mph — February 16, 2009 @ 4:42 am
Addendum: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/littlegreenfootballs.com+jihadwatch.org+atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
Charles has almost the combined audience size of Atlas and JW combined.
ps Ayn Rand would roll in her grave to see the type of person who has appropriated her novel’s namesake.
Comment by mph — February 16, 2009 @ 4:47 am
Cheers. Yes, found something to that effect making a quick google. And just comparing comment volumes suggests that lgf has massively more traffic than the others. Not that truth is decided by site hits. Yep, she most have chosen that nic long time ago. Time does strange things to you if you allow it to.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 5:00 am
[Deleted due to length]
Comment by Froggy — February 16, 2009 @ 7:24 am
“Spencer claims that he joined the group unawares but then proceeds to accuse the tipper together with his long-standing internet nemesis Charles Johnson of lgf of setting him up.”
I don’t think Spencer accused Johnson. I think he only accused the tipper, and intended to accuse Johnson only of too-quickly believing the tipper.
Comment by Bryce — February 16, 2009 @ 7:47 am
“Deleted due to length,” eh? OK, it’s your sandbox.
Comment by Froggy — February 16, 2009 @ 8:54 am
The article did not state anything with certainty (and there never will be such an article).
The article did not claim 100% certainty.
Would this mean that if you check DNA from Russians born 50 years ago that there’d be imprinted some communist knowledge and sympathies in their genes (or any other period and any other party)?
Obviously that is an absurd proposition. However it is perfectly reasonable to suppose a genetic tendency towards either individualism or collectivism, and that the prevalence of each tendency way may differ (on the average) between different populations, and further that ideologies promoting either individualism or collectivism will be more readily accepted by groups of people who have a natural inclination in that direction. Human beings are not fungible, either as individuals or groups, and therefore any universalist “one size fits all” ideology that treats them as such is doomed to failure.
It’s an either-or proposition: Either man has free will or he is determined, for example by innate ideas.
I don’t think so. Human beings are influenced by natural urges and by cultural influences as well as being guided by inner force of will, and the ability to resist natural impulses varies from individual to individual. It’s a matter of degree, not either/or.
If you’re interested I’d recommend you to read Leonard Peikoff’s ‘Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand’
Thanks for the recommendation. Here’s another scientific study you may be interested in:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=free-will-vs-programmed-brain
Comment by aNZu — February 16, 2009 @ 10:42 am
As I wrote to you, feel free to link to my post.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 1:40 pm
James Watson disagrees with the basic premise. That there is NO differences between races. But I guess lizoids know more than the guy who discovered DNA?
Charles Johnson is a leftist who for a time talked the rights game but now that the fear of 9/11 is receding into the past he is reverting to form…hysterical leftist. He is worse than useless, he is dangerous. Charles is someone in our ranks who is murdering us instead of the bad guys.
As far as there being no difference between races please explain the fact that blacks are 7 times more likely to die of murder than whites? They are 6 times more likely to murder. Are you attempting to explain this behavior away to culture?
Comment by Pierre — February 16, 2009 @ 2:11 pm
Didn’t say that. Read more carefully.
This is encouraging. You mean scientists have been able to isolate the homicide gene? Can they differentiate it from the manslaughter gene? In that case the Justice Department should be informed immediately and a process put in place to execute those individuals who carry the premeditated murder gene. And so on. Seriously, all human action, above sneezing, is chosen. And please don’t cite additional statistics. It does not change this fundamental.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
If your actions are not determined by your environment, then logically they must be determined by your genetics.
If your actions are not determined by your genetics, then logically they must be determined by your environment.
If you maintain otherwise then you are claiming that your actions are acausal: you are an uncaused cause, a God.
Be careful about attributing Free Will to yourself. To do so is to label yourself a God. Are you prepared to declare yourself a God, or God’s prophet?
Comment by aNZu — February 16, 2009 @ 3:58 pm
What forces compelled you to write your comment above? Volition is an inescapable fact of nature, not supernatural. Every thought implies choice. If thoughts were automatic there’d be no need and no way to check them, no need for rules of thought (logic), we couldn’t have thought otherwise.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
Guftafs:
What forces compelled you to write your comment above? Volition is an inescapable fact of nature, not supernatural. Every thought implies choice.
You can only be sure that we have the appearance of possessing volition.There is no proof that we do.
Comment by littlebangtheories — February 16, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
This is encouraging. You mean scientists have been able to isolate the homicide gene? Can they differentiate it from the manslaughter gene? In that case the Justice Department should be informed immediately and a process put in place to execute those individuals who carry the premeditated murder gene. And so on. Seriously, all human action, above sneezing, is chosen.
Nope but then again it wouldnt be a “Murder” gene it would be an agression gene. And based on statistics it looks like it may exist. And a quick google shows that indeed it has scientific backing…oops.
WebMD Health NewsJan. 24, 2003 — A genetic abnormality may help explain why some people are more prone to feelings of anxiety and aggression than others. Researchers say they’ve discovered a gene in mice that regulates levels of a chemical responsible for controlling anxiety, impulsive violence, and depression in humans.
Researchers say the gene, Pet-1, is active only in serotonin nerve cells in the brain. Serotonin is a chemical messenger that allows cells to communicate with each other in the brain and spinal cord.
When this gene was eliminated in laboratory mice, the researchers found that the mice displayed more aggression and anxiety.
Comment by pierre — February 16, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
This is encouraging. You mean scientists have been able to isolate the homicide gene? Can they differentiate it from the manslaughter gene? In that case the Justice Department should be informed immediately and a process put in place to execute those individuals who carry the premeditated murder gene.
Not a murder gene but agression has indeed been tracked to a gene.
WebMD Health NewsJan. 24, 2003 — A genetic abnormality may help explain why some people are more prone to feelings of anxiety and aggression than others. Researchers say they’ve discovered a gene in mice that regulates levels of a chemical responsible for controlling anxiety, impulsive violence, and depression in humans. Researchers say the gene, Pet-1, is active only in serotonin nerve cells in the brain. Serotonin is a chemical messenger that allows cells to communicate with each other in the brain and spinal cord. When this gene was eliminated in laboratory mice, the researchers found that the mice displayed more aggression and anxiety.
Comment by pierre — February 16, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
“Certainty” and “proof” are concept that presuppose a mind that is not automatically infallible (not determined by, for instance, innate ideas, such as racists ultimately must claim) and that it needs rules (logic) to ensure that its conclusion are valid (proof).
Please: men are not mice. Further, no statistical survey can invalidate the basic fact that man’s mind is volitional per above. As I wrote earlier, please don’t quote more statistics.
Comment by guftafs — February 16, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
Sorry this whole this has now gone way out of proportion. Your arguments against Robert are just plain weak – it’s subtleties upon subtleties. I clicked on LGF this morning with open eyes, expecting the worst. Hell, I have barely enough time to read one blog so your post should’ve helped me pick one. Then I found nothing substantive. It starts with the ‘hey he joined a bad facebook group’ and didn’t apologize strongly enough. Jeez, I’ve done that too. I click accept on almost every invite on Facebook and MySpace to help my small business profile get out. Sometimes I check it out if it looks like a competitor, but most of the time I don’t. I have (usually much later) ended up removing some when I see that they are abusing my comments or wall.
The rest is a microscopic view into wording subtleties.
This is just silly, and the two should just kiss and make up already. Unfortunately, that is looking less and less likely every day.
Comment by I like both guys — February 16, 2009 @ 7:38 pm
“Fjordman swallowed the idea of Eurabia, the idea that a small clandestine but extremely powerful department within the EU is working for the Islamification of the European Union, hook, line and sinker. This is certainly not reassuring and only adds to the “bad” side of the scales for their part.”
No, my friend. “Eurabia” is the notion that Islamists are doing their best to colonize Europe through high birth rates, and through political and social means, doing things like:
1) ceasing curriculum on the Holocaust in English schools
2) getting Shari’a law implemented for Muslims in Germany and England
3) squashing freedom of speech, as seen in the EU’s prosecution of Geert Wilders, for merely being critical of the disgusting religion known as Islam.
Stuff like that. That is where the notion of Eurabia comes from, and rightly so.
Comment by thesheikhdown — February 16, 2009 @ 8:21 pm
poor sheikhdown
don’t hold your breath waiting for your fantasy region to come into being.
Comment by littlebangtheories — February 16, 2009 @ 8:28 pm
Muslims are so unpopular in Europe and UK ( I am a muslim).
the idea of a plot by my co-religionists ..that we are in the midst of trying to outbreed everyone
else….and take over Europe…is hilarious.
I wish I could meet some Eurabist’s or whatever they should call themselves… I’d be fascinated to observe them
arguing ideas that I’d be embarrassed to hear from a kiddy.
Its up there with the jews running the world blah blah blah ….
Comment by littlebangtheories — February 16, 2009 @ 8:38 pm
Wow, thanks thanks and thanks again! What lovely web music this all makes for me. Especially thanks for the link to Spencer’s last appearance at LGF, which will no doubt make for a fun post.
Spencer got quite angry with me recently when I presumed that he was someone one could ask about contacting Vlaams Belang and proceeded to tirade his way out of supporting them at all. Just sayin’.
Comment by Lex, Agent of Chaos — February 16, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
[...] Robert Spencer Robert Spencer, author of several books on Islam and owner of jihadwatch.org, is seen by quite a few as an important [...] [...]
Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — February 16, 2009 @ 11:59 pm
[Deleted due to excessive length. Author is welcome to post at his own site and link to here.]
Comment by comet — February 17, 2009 @ 12:42 am
Correction above: but that does NOT make one a racist, as Charles Johns claims…
Comment by comet — February 17, 2009 @ 12:48 am
Post 54 above that was deleated that I wrote is a wonderful example of what is wrong with Charles Johnson and people like him (Guftafs) for they are afraid of debate. It is like dealing with Leftist or should I say….Fascist. Give us a plan or shut up…that is my advice to you…
Comment by comet — February 17, 2009 @ 12:52 am
You have a copy of your comments in your inbox. For the record, I am not Charles Johnson.
Comment by guftafs — February 17, 2009 @ 12:56 am
This is encouraging. You mean scientists have been able to isolate the homicide gene? Can they differentiate it from the manslaughter gene? In that case the Justice Department should be informed immediately and a process put in place to execute those individuals who carry the premeditated murder gene. And so on.
Why do you persist in these ridiculous straw men? That is obviously not something that anyone has claimed. Genes influence behaviour, that’s just a fact. That they do not determine it 100% to the degree that you can predict with 100% accuracy that someone will be a murderer doesn’t mean that they are suddenly irrelevant and we have total, pure, unfettered free will. It’s NOT all or nothing. Seriously, sometimes it’s like libertarians are stuck in a time warp from the 1950s. The blank state theory was demolished decades ago.
Comment by aNZu — February 17, 2009 @ 3:37 am
I was/am addressing the idea that there are innate ideas that override conscious thought (since ideas have to be formed by an act of volition in the first place). This is ultimately what racism relies on, the collective determines your character for good or ill, that is the values you’ve accepted, that is the ideas you’ve accepted as true or false. My view is that as soon as one enters the realm of deliberate action (that is, anything above a simple reflex like sneezing), any form of determinism is out. It’s a complicated subject to be sure but I feel we’re running in circles here, which is why I chose to end it here.
Comment by guftafs — February 17, 2009 @ 6:57 am
The blank state theory was demolished decades ago.
Which one? The genuine Enlightenment version, or the false Leftist version?
The genuine one asserts that human beings possess an immutable identity, while individual human *character* is a function of that individual’s choices.
The Leftist version tosses out the individualist/moral character component entirely, and subscribes to the notion that human *nature* itself is the blank slate.
The Leftist version of “tabula rasa” and the genetic determinism of aNZu both share a common premise, one that the genuine view of “tabula rasa” rejects — that individuals do not possess free will, and therefore are not authors of their own character.
Both of these false concepts are aimed at the same goal — escape from the awesome moral responsibility of self-authorship.
Comment by Seerak — February 17, 2009 @ 7:26 am
[Deleted]
Comment by Lex, Agent of Chaos — February 17, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
[...] the insights from several of his books and numerous blog posts on jihadwatch.org. But his failure to unequivically dissociate himself from a group of white nationalists advocating the expulsion of all Muslims from Turkey is a step [...]
Pingback by Java Zen:Thinking Out Loud » Changes to the Blogroll — February 18, 2009 @ 4:41 pm
.
Race is not part of Jihad. Whether or not there are differences in race, it doesn’t follow that races should not all have the same rights obviously. Just as smarter people don’t deserve their human rights more than less intelligent people do. Humans are humans. Period.
No matter how many terrorist attacks there are, we must never fear, resist or mock the precious and ever peaceful Islam. Who are we to say that raping 6 year-olds is immoral? Who are we to say that stoning gays and rape victims to death is evil?
Who are we to say that killing hundreds of people every month in the name of Allah is the height of evil? That is just their culture and ideology and it MUST be respected. Morality is all relative, we must remember that.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe wants
all planets Islamic
Earth is one of many
in process of conversion
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe wants
many Taliban planets
stonings and beheadings
billions served daily
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
allow Islamic conquest
enjoy the dhimmi life
of second class citizens
.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
convert the infidels
or make them pay a tax
if they don’t want to die
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
Comment by USpace — February 21, 2009 @ 1:13 pm
Guftafs,
Thanks for the links.
I have two corrections: It’s James Jatras, not Jatra, and my last name has another ‘j’ in it: Gjermani, not Germani.
Thanks
Comment by Kejda — February 27, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
OK, I just did Spencer a really big favor, and for once he hasn’t sent about 50 emails to me, he hasn’t responded AT ALL! It’s time to photoshop his head onto something now. Any suggestions?
Comment by Lex, Agent of Chaos — February 27, 2009 @ 4:35 pm
Thanks for the corrections and for your latest post which I really found of great value. You should consider having it published in whatever part of mainstream media that would be interested in it.
Regards
Comment by guftafs — February 27, 2009 @ 7:12 pm